Metagame NFE

Small question: Ursaring can run evio rn but Ursaluna isn't allow until Home.
Will Ursaring be allowed in NFE?? (Maybe quickban territory)
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
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Small question: Ursaring can run evio rn but Ursaluna isn't allow until Home.
Will Ursaring be allowed in NFE?? (Maybe quickban territory)
ursaring is currently not usable because it is not capable of evolving. when ursaluna exists in the game and ursaring is capable of evolving it will be legal in nfe - at least initially. we will have it on the council watchlist for obvious reasons.
 
Skjermbilde 2023-02-24 kl. 00.01.01.png
Applying this as a sample alike team. It's a HO that's not too hard to pivot and could help any new beginners as I've been testing with it on Ladder and some friendlies. I've some other alternatives for the 5th partner if you don't like this one. The 5th partner is usually in there in order to get offensive momentum against Tinkatuff. Some quick lead tips are that Tinkatuff and Glimmet are the best to decide. Glimmet is preferable if you expect them to bring out a physical attacker while Tinkatuff takes the special attackers.
https://pokepast.es/69c7e0f967eced65
https://pokepast.es/db54ba29e2a9b1bc


Long thoughts about how I built this
I had in mind to build a Hyper Offensive-ish as the potential is vast as always, and I wanted to try Glimmet again. Glimmet's issue is that it can easily be played around by Toedscool, even if ghost types beside in mind as Knock + Leed Seed is a powerful combo with a lack of resistance. Because of that, I found out that Frogadier is an excellent partner that puts immense pressure on Toedscool. Spikes just worked perfectly with the core. But you could easily customize with the moveset such as double spikes, or give Frogadier U-turn. It all depends on the team structure and what you're going for. I just found these two sets being the most effective in my mind. Huge notes on Frogadier's ability can very much depend and both of them are good in their own way. Protean gives them a bit more offensive option while gaining some typing mind games, such as using ground types from spikes to deny Tink's thunder wave. While Torrent retains your water type, which can be very helpful against Mareanie as you'll be able to set up spikes while they don't do much damage back.


There are a couple of good reasons why I decided to use Drakloak over Misdreavus. Drakloak takes advantage of the hazards way harder than Misdreavus could do. Drakloak perfectly covers every other spinner that these two are unable to stop while abusing Night Shade + Dragon Tail extremely oppressive. I did also not feel like using Covert Cloak Misdreavus for Naclstack as I found Naclstack to be such a big pain in the ass that Eviolite Misdreavus would have been weakened so fast, rendering its offensive pressure way less relevant. Drakloak basically invalidates Naclstack's existence in a much easier way without feeling restricted or passive. Lastly, the speed tier + defensive typings were perfect enough to handle some annoying threats like Raboot, Vigoroth, and Dunsparce that could potentially roll-stomp this team. While Drakloak doesn't have the offensive capability that Misdreavus has, it does actually do so much more than Missy could because of the qualities above. As a note, you could add more speed on Drakloak if you want to check Frogadier as well, but I feel like you're risking a lot of bulk here. Then again I think that's just a flaw from Drakloak that will be more noticeable in the future.


These three are essential to the team. However, the 4th one is also close to being important as the first three. I needed Tink's typing in order to keep a check on Misdreavus, Girafarig, and Sneasel, but most importantly have a way to remove Eviolite from Hattrem although they're not that common. She's usually used as defensively as possible. However, I find that this would make this team not HO at all, and the offense felt like it dropped drastically. SD Tinkatuff is a set, but it's usually frowned upon due to Tinkatuff's lackluster power and coverage. But I found it working here perfectly as it can still keep the momentum for its partners while forcing more limited switch-ins. Though it's not the most perfect set out there, it's still bulky enough and I like it for its early to mid-game positions. Knock + Stone Edge was originally for Fletchinder, but I found it oddly enough a decent way to pressure Crocalor as its ability bypasses unaware. I do think I may be overextending though against these, so there are ways to optimize here. Such as SD/Knock/Play Rough/Twave for example.


The last two should be dedicated to taking advantage of Tinkatuff, and revenge killing Pawnard and DD mons.
5th slot was extremely tricky considering switching in safely against Tinkatuff's Thunder Wave is limited. Hence I decided to just add Fletchinder to clean it up. While it doesn't directly address the t-wave issue, it has a lot of potentials to clean up stuff with its ability and alright win-con which can sometimes work. Also, I needed a flying type for ground immunity and keeping an eye on Gabite. As a note, if you want to chip down opposing Tinkatuff, the combination of Tink's knock + being discouraged to attack by Glimmet's ability to activate t-spikes on physical attack and Glimmet can be worn down slowly by Power Gem/Mud Shot + Night Shade is solid as hell.
There are alternatives and that mainly comes down to some ground types. Pupitar can setup and it's actually quite scary as EQ/Crunch/SE hurts as hell, but the drawback is being revenge killed by Sneasel and the typing may backfire against sudden MUs. Sub Pupitar could lowkey exist to set up on Toedscool fwiw lol. The other option is Gabite, which is a solid option as Gabite's quite scary to switch in and can easily take advantage of Tinkatuff despite being weak to Fairy, and as well helps vs Pawn MU. There aren't that many other ground types offensively I could think of except for Scarf Krokorok. Just gonna point out Electric types do not like switching in as the offensive ones get folded from Knock Off lol.

Sneasel is the definition of "stopping the momentum" in this tier. Ice Shard is so appreciated to stop DD Fraxure from sweeping, and it does also revenge kill Pawn. Brick Break > Low Kick for the guaranteed kill on Pawn and it can break the screens which is an extra lol.


While this is a HO team, I think it can mesh with other offensive playstyles. Like, Glimmet may look like the perfect HO lead, but it's also a pokemon that can work in many other ways since its odd typing has some valuable traits. The core is also not a strictly HO core and more like just something that approaches the hazard game in its own messed-up way.

Besides that... uhhhh... take this weird team here I made out of nowhere. Haven't tested it since test games are basically impossible to find so I'll have to rely heavily on visualization because of it. I don't really like it as it discourages me to build teams, so I'm lucky I can do that in NFE.
Give me feedback if you found issues with the team thx: https://pokepast.es/fe897271229c76eb
I'll try and build more sample-able teams and post them here or edit in here if I feel like it btw.
 
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There haven't been a lot of NFE forum posts talking about the post-Frogadier patch, so I figured I'll make a quick talk on some mons[4 hours later my b...] since NFE Open is starting in about a week I believe. Pretty hard to get any recent info on NFE meta, so I found this fits perfectly now.

Let's start with the speedster :Frogadier:
Finally, we have an actually good offensive water type that's also fast!!! I don't know why Gamefreak decided to not give Quaxwell Ice Beam or Ice Punch that would have helped it a lot not to be walled by Drakloak. I love the fact that we get another offensive mon that's able to threaten Naclstack, and give an infamous Drakloak set(Rest/Talk) some glaring issues. Drakloak will have to actually debate on the speed + bulk aspect. You could be faster than Frogadier, but then you're more vulnerable against other threats, the same thing around. Drakloak had a very weird strength aspect where it was able to consistently switch in against like Water and Fire mons due to them being unable 3hko Rest/Talk Drakloak. Comes as a double-edged sword where you're forced to run water types or SpDef-specific mons like Tinkatuff, Dunsparce, Vigoroth, etc. Not to mention that it's an excellent spiker as not only it threatens every defoggers but also the best remover Toedscool itself, a very chaotic advantage as the meta has already its hazard control issues. Despite the controversial side of it, I think Frogadier is a good addition to the meta and changed the meta more than Raboot did.

Reminds me :Raboot: was a bit disappointing. The issue I had with it comes down to like how it progresses in the game. Ended up it wasn't a pleasant one because if the opposing team had Mareanie or Drakloak, Raboot would not make the biggest progressions as they slow down Raboot's game very heavily, and those two are very meta staples imo. They had also an irritating 4mss issue where its coverage move didn't cover that much. HJK is the only way you'll be able to break Naclstack, but then Mareanie and Drakloak stop it. Double Edge for Mareanie, but then you'll be walled by Drakloak and Naclstack. Sucker Punch was also useful to revenge kill Frogadier, but didn't much anything else. All these issues really demotivated me from trying Sword Dance set. The Protean/Libero nerf also hurts Raboot more than Frogadier since Frogadier had other roles than being a pure all-out attacker. It's not a bad pokemon, however, it's a very difficult pokemon to build around because it demands a lot of help in order to make its strength work. Take advantage of it for pivoting purposes.

:Mareanie: feels like an A ranked mon right now because unlike Quaxwell it doesn't feel complete sitting duck against Drakloak and its typings cover a lot of things atm. Being able to consistently switch in Frogadier and Raboot is neat, and being a poison type also helps it against T-spikes. It's just a really bulky enough pokemon that checks a lot of relevant meta things. Although it's still extremely exploitable against Sub mons, Hattrem, and slight 4mss issue as this thing does not dish any strong attacks. Only good because the meta gives it a reason to be used.

:Toedscool: is the best spinner and spiker, but I don't really like both Spikes + Rapid Spin in the same set. Mainly because of the Toedscool ditto where the opposing teammate has Toxic with them, but mainly I think the 4th slot could be used instead of autopiloting Spikes + Rapid spin combo. A lot of the other moves are also equally important for them hence why I think changing either Knock/Leech Seed is just not worth the time tbh. If you just want Toedscool's role to become to be more consistent at removing hazards, then I recommend Rapid Spin / Knock Off / Leech Seed / Toxic to boost its spinning potential. Spikes + Rapid Spin is still a good option though, but just be aware that you'll lose to opposing Toedscool unless you're sacrificing key utility moves. So having partners that can switch to Toxic and play around Leech Seed with Poison types and Tinkatuff works well. Just be aware that Leech Seed + Toxic is almost an unresisted combo, then again that's just how Toedscool is in this tier in a nutshell.

Alright so :Quaxwell: isn't a bad spinner, but god it's a painful MU when I have to face a Drakloak team. That's the biggest reason why I refrain from using it a lot of time. It's quite fantastic against Misdreavus only team, but Drakloak makes it feel like a huge MU fish. I'll still be exploring it as Offensive Quaxwell is pretty fun and Drakloak looks like it'll be more pressured with its sets as the meta continues to develop.

As much as how flawed defog users are, :Fletchinder: has still a lot of value and I think they're very useful in the field. They're able to force out and remove hazards from Toedscool and Tinkatuff, consistently remove hazards if the team has only Drakloak and not Misdreavus, and then Flame Body + U-turn makes it always has a worth in the meta. But still, Fletchinder is a very easy pokemon to remove from the field either in long term or short with lures such as Stone Edge Tinkatuff, but at least you're able to get a few opportunities to remove hazards.

:Sneasel: is still good even if Tera ban definitely nerfed it. I find it an important mon in way to revenge kill dangerous threats like Gabite, Fraxure, and Pawnard. It is actually mad funny how it's carried by a lot of key details as 361 avoids 240 scarfers, or its typing has some defensive traits n such. Not a threat as it was before, but it's lowkey important for the tier.

:Gabite: was really gatekept by Tera Fairy Missy and other tera types, but with the tera ban this pokemon looks lowkey broken not gonna lie. Besides the unviable :Bronzor: I don't think there's anyone that resists its stabs, which is highly dangerous considering its good bulk, sword dance, and excellent base speed for the tier. Would I dare to say it's a bit too much for the tier in the future? The weakness does come with its typing as Sneasel and Frogadier force it out, but like they're not a complete answer against techs such as Sub Gabite so I have a feeling Gabite will be looked up in the future.

But finally, I can talk about these two ones here.

I've been talking a lot about :Misdreavus: in a negative way, and I still think the issues with hazards control mainly come down to her, but as an overall mon, I feel like it's not problematic as it was centralized in Tera meta. I feel like every missy set has some noticeable holes in their way and it doesn't have the sweeping potential nor does it have the longevity. Nasty Plot sets are destructive, but the loss of bulk is very noticeable and it means Misdreavus have fewer switch-in opportunities. And like Tinkatuff and Toedscool are common as ever and keep a good check against those sets. While sets like Sub with Pain Spilt / Will O Wisp / Taunt also feels flawed in their own way. Like they're annoying in their own way, but I feel like there is quite the counterplay against it and you'll have to fish for some archetypes to make this set work. The issue with that set is sacrificing speed for bulk, which means you'll be kind of worse against offensive teams. As much of the privileges it has, I think it has some important role to keep an eye on physical attackers, especially with how hazard heavy this meta is right now. I am very uncertain how I feel about Misdreavus's spot without saying to myself that the meta just needs more time to develop.

And lastly, I'm gonna talk about :Naclstack:
Alright so the reason why I didn't feel like it deserves getting banned back in Tera meta was that I accepted the meta was a very top-heavy offense, and Naclstack was extremely exploited with Tera Ghost and it didn't really do much in the field when it faced against offense itself. Tera itself gave me a way to go aggressive against mon like Naclstack, even if people were using the shitty gimmick Iron Defense/Body Press set. Naclstack didn't really abuse Tera so Tera itself hurt it more than it could abuse.
But with Tera gone, I found myself in a lot of frustration with Naclstack and how it put so much restriction not only on teambuilding but also against slower playstyles like balance, defense, and even some offensive teams. While Tera wasn't a complete answer to Naclstack, now you don't have a lot of ways to set up on Naclstack, limited to Misdreavus and Drakloak being able to truly take advantage of that. I would say they would be good counters until you find out it learns Curse and can combine it with Heavy Slam/EQ. Why this set wasn't used as much before because the Tera types made it easier to turnaround that set, but that option isn't there anymore so this set works very well.
I forced myself to use Covert Cloak at some point as a thought to handle against Naclstack easier, but then you'll have to realize that one pokemon being able to change the item's mascot because of one move speaks the levels of unhealthiness. Also forcing out someone's eviolite like that is not healthy from the NFE's perspective. Besides being still weaker against Curse Set, you're also losing bulk against everything else, which is a RED FLAG in my own mind. I was thinking of a position where I had covert cloak Mareanie just for the Curse/Heavy Slam Naclstack, but then I get easily worn down by Specs Frogadier because of I needed Covert Cloak to check that mon in particular. While a bit too extreme example, I'm just saying that Naclstack is too extreme that we have to go with extreme measure means to handle it in an unhealthy way for non-offensive teams.

Honestly, I think the move Salt Cure itself is just too much on for the tier. NFE isn't built to deal with Salt Cure, and the effect it has on the tier is very toxic. One of the best ways to counteract Salt Cure is by changing Eviolite to another item entirely as again, is like removing something so important against everything else for only one mon. Naclstack doesn't have really good switch-ins as opposed to it unless you build your team in a way to discourage it from switching in, but that's beside the point. Naclstack needs to be looked(again I guess?) and that's my talk on this crazy pokemon.
 
Hi everyone,
not so long ago I played in the same team as lbdc (the tapu lele outro) for the OML (OTHER METAGAME LEAGUE), french tour. at first i played aaa, i forgot i was main nfe :sweat:.
so I played nfe week 2 starting with a win. the team is very nice and revolves around scarf frogadier and no misdreavus( I like a lot of misdreavus sets because with foul sub pain split and np you can 1v1 tinkatuff, which leaves room for scarf frogadier to spam. the defensive body and really basic, tinkatuff, fletch. this body and very good because it complements enormously fletch for raboot and tinkatuff for all type of water that hits hard. a big big up to monster which helped me enormously for the team week 2, 3 and week 4
week 2 : https://pokepast.es/6e144f93566b31ca (win)
week 3 : https://pokepast.es/621e09cbef492046 (s/o @lemonstre1,win)
week 4 (final) : https://pokepast.es/98a2f60edb8d4743 (s/o lemonstre1 again for the help) ( loose).

you must have noticed that I play a lot of the same defensive body, in fact I think it's the best defensive body in the meta with funguss more tinkatuff. I wanted to play offense for this final, but I didn't want to know how to play anything other than what I think is one of the best corp in the nfe

edit : https://pokepast.es/ab908de81f974ccc My Offense team for week 4*
 
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NFE
lovely art by in the hills

NFE, or Not Fully Evolved is a metagame around the premise of only allowing pokemon that can still evolve. Unlike LC, this includes any stage 2 Pokemon that is able to evolve, rather than just Stage 1 Evolutions.

Basic Strategy:
Eviolite or Eviolite? That is the question. Historically, the NFE metagame has mainly consisted of balance and bulky-offense teams that center around Eviolite, as it increases the bulk of non-fully evolved Pokemon by 50%, and by extension, moves like Knock Off, Thief, Covet, and Trick become very valuable for creating progress. However, other playstyles have also been very successful, with hazard stack and Sticky Web teams being especially notable due to the rarity of Heavy-Duty Boots. All in all, NFE is a wide-ranging metagame with a low power creep that offers an enjoyable experience for both beginners and competitive veterans alike.

However, the introduction of threats both old and new and a generation-defining mechanic in terastallizing means that the metagame is doubtlessly going to evolve from here!
Please use this thread to discuss meta trends and new features that impact the Generation 9 NFE metagame!

For live discussion, check out our Discord Server!
thanks to Mirbro and Greybaum for helping a lot with this OP

Rules: NFE allows any pokemon that is both unbanned from the tier, and can evolve in-game.
Clauses: Standard OM Clauses + Sleep Moves Clause + Terastal Clause
Banlist:
Pokemon:
Magneton
Scyther
Haunter
Bisharp
Primeape
Chansey
Abilities:
Arena Trap
Shadow Tag
Moves:
Baton Pass
Current Watchlist:
Misdreavus
Naclstack

FAQ:
Q:
Why aren’t Ursaring and Basculin legal despite being able to hold Eviolite?
A: Their evolutions aren’t currently obtainable in the game, they will be legal once the game is updated and their evolutions can be transferred in.

Resources:
Sample Teams (coming soon!)
Resources Thread
Viability Rankings
Role Compendium
Speed Tiers

SV NFE Council:
:tinkatuff: lepton (Leader)
:pikachu: 5Dots
:primeape: Greybaum
:slowpoke: Mirbro
"They will be legal" no the fuck they wont

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Naclstack: 172-204 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Naclstack: 187-224 (57.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is naclstack NOT the physically bulkiest mon in the tier
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Samples are live here!
We're always accepting new sample submissions, so feel free to drop teams and we'll try our best to keep the list up to date as the metagame develops.

Also, go sign up for the NFE Open here!

Now to squeeze in my personal thoughts on the tier right now (not necessarily representative of the rest of the council - I encourage them to make their own posts). The short version is I'm pretty happy with the current metagame.
There's a variety of viable defensive cores people are using and the introduction of Frogadier as an alternative offensive spiker to Glimmet has kept offensive playstyles refreshingly viable and non-linear. I do believe three pokemon stand out as potentially unhealthy between Misdreavus, Pikachu, and Naclstack though, and each for different reasons. Misdreavus has been the #1 Pokemon in the tier since 'the big three' were banned, and it's in my eyes the most reliable win condition bar none, finding a ton of set-up opportunities thanks to its solid defensive typing and stat spread, with offensive counterplay being somewhat inconsistent at times because of how the Substitute & Draining Kiss combination operates. Pikachu has no safe switch-ins in the tier, and while it's extremely easy to offensively pressure and requires some prediction before it can start claiming 2HKOs, its wallbreaking prowess may be too much to deal with long-term. Naclstack is the one I'm currently least concerned about - it thrives in longer games and can dismantle any team given enough free turns, but it's also pretty passive outside of Salt Cure and can become a liability in matchups against Substitute users (Misdreavus, Gabite, and Fraxure, mostly). I reject the idea of Covert Cloak being viable, let alone a strong option, and I haven't personally felt pressured to run it on any of my teams. Between the Substitute users mentioned above, breakers like Meditite and Frogadier, and the numerous defensive Pokemon that can limit it like Toedscool, Drakloak, and Quaxwell, there is plenty of counterplay available and techs like Worry Seed Foongus and Covert Cloak Mareanie are largely unnecessary (though still available for the unconfident). My opinion on this mon may change over time, especially if the Curse Heavy Slam sets pick up in popularity, but I'd rather not jump into a suspect too soon when I don't think anyone's even been running Heavy Slam except me in a tournament setting.
Despite the above, I see no reason we can't run a suspect or quickban slate - I just want to hold off until we can get a bigger sample size of mid- to high-level games from the upcoming NFE Open. Keep the posts coming and if there's enough noise for any particular suspect we'll talk about it again in the council chat.

"They will be legal" no the fuck they wont
Chill. I don't expect Ursaring to last more than 24 hours at most, nor Basculin for more than, say, 48 hours (I don't think Mareanie and Quaxwell will be enough on their own) but we aren't putting them on a banlist when they don't even exist yet.
 

SetsuSetsuna

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
Hey. I have been playing NFE ladder for about 3 days or so now. I noticed one thing isn't banned though and that is ofc Moody. I was originally going to wait for at least R1 of NFE open to make this post but given the state of ladder I felt it was better to do so now. I have played 27 matches and about 8 of them were against the same person, sometimes waiting ~30 mins for a game. So for me thats a non issue but I wouldn't like to be someone else and go through that only to lose to Moody.

Alright so what is Moody? Moody boosts a random stat (except accuracy/evasion) +2 and another stat -1 every turn. How many Pokemon in NFE have this ability? Exactly one, Snorunt.

1679164589287.png

Pretty awful stats. Throughout the generations Moody Glalie has made use of Substitute, Protect and Leftovers to get more opportunities at good Moody rolls. If doing the same with Snorunt that would mean you would not even be able to use Eviolite let alone Heavy-Duty Boots.

What do Moody and Snorunt struggle with? Well Crocalor is by far the biggest issue thanks to Unaware, a Fire typing, reliable recovery in Slack Off and Roar. Another one is Mareanie thanks to Haze. There are of course other issues, such as struggling to find room to set up due to Snorunts awful typing, bulk and weakness to rocks; Curse Naclstack, SD Raboot and NP/Calm Mind Girafarig can be annoying, though they struggle to keep up if the do not switch in right away and Snorunt gets good Moody rolls. With all the above in mind here's what I came up with on day 1

:Hattrem::Snorunt::Frogadier::Zorua::Raboot::Fletchinder:
Moody Snorunt + Trapper Raboot

The Snorunt set is the typical Ice Beam + Sub + Protect + Disable with max Spe and max HP. What lets this work however is Raboot

:sv/raboot:
Raboot @ Binding Band
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
- Fire Spin
- Taunt

- Mud Shot
- U-turn
Raboot is an amazing Crocalor and Mareanie lure. Binding Band lets you deal enough damage to beat both of them, and max SpD lets you take on Flamethrower and Surf. Hattrem can block Stealth Rock from Naclstack and most importantly Toxic Spikes from Mareanie, with Healing Wish giving Snorunt 2 chances to get the sweep going, and Nuzzle slowing (and admittedly trying to hax) Pokemon such as Tinkatuff and Fraxure. Zorua can cripple an opposing Pokemon with Trick or Memento, giving Snorunt room to set up. Frogadier and Fletchinder round up the team to better handle Naclstack, Crocalor, Meditite, an Floragato.

Ended up going 22-5, which is prolly alr for this ladder. In any case the reason I figured it was better to bring up now is not only cause I think Moody is insanely busted in the tier, but rather cause it severely affects the state of an already struggling ladder. Cant really make my case stronger with replays cause well, more often than not people load up the tier just to see how its like and are at under 1100 elo/10 games and its gotta be awful to have to deal with this. I will still leave some of the screenshots I saved cause they look cool c:

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A story in 2 parts

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Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hey. I have been playing NFE ladder for about 3 days or so now. I noticed one thing isn't banned though and that is ofc Moody. I was originally going to wait for at least R1 of NFE open to make this post but given the state of ladder I felt it was better to do so now. I have played 27 matches and about 8 of them were against the same person, sometimes waiting ~30 mins for a game. So for me thats a non issue but I wouldn't like to be someone else and go through that only to lose to Moody.
moody is a pretty degenerate tactic but i personally have no interest in banning it unless it starts becoming a more prevalant issue (especially in tournaments); it's inherently unreliable, is primarily used on a pokemon with 50/50/50 defensive stats not holding eviolite, and even after significant boosts is still walled by some fairly common pokemon like crocalor, mareanie, and quaxwell. fire spin raboot is a really cool partner for it but has a pretty significant cost in the builder and even if you remove a mareanie or crocalor (hard against anyone who's now seen your post haha) you're still going to need a lot of free turns or a lot of luck to go your way before snorunt can win.
i fully acknowledge that you can ruin some poor 1000 ELO ladderer's day with this tactic but i think the same could be done with similarly subpar strategies like subtect flittle w/ tspikes support, or resttalk pressure pawniard, and i don't think moody is enough of a problem to be worth banning any more than it was last gen when we had both snorunt and remoraid lying around.
edit: not speaking on behalf of the rest of council, just myself etc. etc.
 
Hi just sharing my opinion on the meta rn
I don't think the meta is in a great spot right now, sometimes it's hard to have a team not weak to one of the threat of the tier and there are some unhealthy or broken pokemons in my opinion so let's begin with the first:

Gabite :gabite:
Gabite with SD is scary asf, it can run an Adamant nature with some bulk because it is the slowest of the fast mons, so it hits harder and is bulkier.
The only switch in it has is defensive Misdreavus and it's reaaaaally not something healthy
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dartrix: 214-254 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 211-250 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 157-186 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quaxwell: 175-207 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Toedscool: 118-140 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Unaware Crocalor: 158-188 (43.1 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO (unset)
252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 235-277 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dunsparce: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Dunsparce Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 200-236 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Dunsparce PhysDef may be a switch in if you win the 50/50 after coming on rocks between Gabite doing EQ or Gabite doing SD to predict a Roost because if you don't Roost and Gabite does EQ you lose the 1v1
It's not hard to revenge kill it tho, Frogadier is great for that and it is one of the best, if not the best, mon in the tier rn, Sneasel (with icicle crash only though, ice shard does 80% if Gabite has no bulk), Physical Pikachu with Play Rough, & Misdreavus DGleam (which is only used for Gabite).
But is it healthy to claim a kill every time you come on the field? Absolutely not

Fraxure :fraxure:
Fraxure is one of the scariest NFE mon of all time, and for a good reason, it has Dragon Dance + Mold Breaker (for Unaware Crocalor) + 117 Atk.
But with SV it gets a great move for it: Trailblaze; a 50BP grass-type move that boosts your speed, so you can setup Fraxure while hitting the opponent which is extremely useful, especially for this calc:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Frogadier: 126-150 (50.6 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once you get a boost in Speed, you can setup Swords Dance, or you can Swords Dance and then Trailblaze too depending on the situation, so it's not really hard to setup Fraxure this gen, because you dont let offensive mons in for free, and this mon is bulky enough and forces a lot of pokemons to switch out.
Also +2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tinkatuff: 230-272 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and god knows how easy it is to weaken Tinkatuff just by trading Koff with your own Tinkatuff, and if Tinkatuff is an issue: MAGNEMITE MOMENT (which is a real mon and actually does a great job to get rid of Tinkatuff for either Fraxure, or Murkrow, or whatever that takes advantage of it)
There are ways to deal with Fraxure, like with Misdreavus Defensive if you are not weakened (hard to do) because it takes 16-19% from Trailblaze, + 12% from Rocks, and then take Outrage which means that you should have like 80% of your life the whole game with it to trade it vs Fraxure to burn it so its easier to handle it with your others mons, you cannot win the 1v1 vs tho

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Very easy to sweep with Fraxure, extremely easy to break with Fraxure, the 2 mons that deal with it are Misdreavus Defensive & Tinkatuff, by burning it and then die (or being extremely weaken) or paralyse / weaken it and then die, respectively.
Vs Missy it can also just Trailblaze SD 3times and sweep your whole team if you have no scarf or priority anyway

Raboot :raboot:
Another SD user, has a lot of coverage, Double-Edge is the main STAB to do damage and allow you to break through Mareanie, it has HJK for Naclstack, it has Sucker Punch for faster Pokemons & Misdreavus, Flare Blitz for Tinkatuff & Misdreavus not doing an offensive move, it just has everything it wants to have, with recoil tho it dies just by doing flare blitz / Double edge and with no eviolite its easy to weaken it but once it gets SD up it's impossible to not lose like 2 Pokemon against it most of the time

Misdreavus :misdreavus:
I don't think Misdreavus is neither unhealthy or broken, but i do want to say some things about the NP Set.
There are a lot of ways to deal with Misdreavus without having to trade a Pokemon against it everytime it comes on the field, here are the Pokemons i use to deal with Misdreavus
:crocalor:
Has Unaware so don't care about the NP Set, Taunt NP doesnt exist because you want to have : Sball + NP + Coverage + Pain Split/Sub most of the time so Crocalor can just burn it with WoW and Roar, or Encore, you can also run Crunch because it's fun but it's most likely to be useless unless you want it to win the 1v1 vs Missy

:dunsparce:
Both Shadow Ball and Bite work to deal with Misdreavus depending on the set you're using, you can glare it as well

:eelektrik:
Can use Crunch to deal with it without having to take recoil, but wild charge works too, a defensive pivot that can come, break the sub if needed, and uturn on a faster pokemon

:girafarig:
Can come on it, NP, and has 37% to OHKO it after rocks with Psyshock, it also takes 44-52% from DGleam
Calm Mind always win the 1v1 without having to rely on the tie even if Missy spams Nasty Plot

:tinkatuff:
Can trade 50% of your like to para it if needed

:sneasel:
Best revenge killer to Misdreavus and can come hard on it

:mareanie:
Haze + Toxic for the set Pain Split, loses to Sub but can still spam Haze to not be a setup fodder

:foongus:
Clear Smog / Toxic / Stun Spore + Foul Play, Toxic/Stun Spore wins the duel vs Misdreavus without Sub, Clear Smog can prevent it to spam NP on you and wins most of the time, Foul Play breaks the sub in case it's sub

tl;dr (In my opinion) Misdreavus :misdreavus: is NOT the Pokemon we should be looking for right now because it has enough answers and ways to deal with it, i can defenitely see it being suspect tested in the future, but i think both Gabite :gabite: and Fraxure :fraxure: should be either quickbanned or suspect tested before Misdreavus because Missy is one of the only pokemon that can handle both.
Raboot :raboot: should be in the watchlist, its movepool + ability + speed may be an issue for the tier.
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I've been pushing for a Misdreavus ban in the NFE council server recently because I think it's by far the best win condition in the tier and there's genuinely no good reason not to use it on every single team; the only truly reliable answer to it long-term is Coil Dunsparce which broadly speaking isn't a particularly good or splashable Pokemon.
Even in the last round of Open, there's these two egregiously brutal replays where Misdreavus picks up a win against very standard teams;
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nfe-686081
This team has a Tinkatuff and three Pokemon that can situationally RK Misdreavus between Frogadier, Sneasel, and Drakloak, but Tinkatuff is quickly put in range and the recovery granted by Draining Kiss allows Misdreavus to not only set-up on and 1v1 Frogadier but also have enough health afterwards to avoid being taken out by Night Shade (or Icicle Crash, were Sneasel not para'd).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nfe-1836268557-emz4ilzqy4wqijlvwn9stxll1vv39xwpw
Similar story here; Pawniard is put in range and then Pinecoishot has no counterplay to a +2 Misdreavus. In this game Sneasel clicked Swords Dance, but I think it's important to note that unless Sneasel was both Life Orb and hit a high roll, Bite wasn't doing enough to secure the kill and Misdreavus was recovering upwards of 60% back - that's if it even carried Bite.

These are not bad teams that are losing to Misdreavus; in a vacuum, Pokemon like Tinkatuff, Toedscool, Eelektrik and Pawniard are solid answers - they can switch in multiple times and either straight up 1v1 it or at least threaten a Knock Off so something faster can pick it off. But in practice they're taking chip from hazards, or Knock Off, or a second wincon, none of them have reliable recovery, and the offensive counterplay to Misdreavus simply does not exist outside of extremely niche options like Choice Specs Drakloak, which I've yet to see anyone use. Misdreavus sets an unhealthy building dynamic where reliable defensive counterplay means piloting a semi-stall build with Pokemon like SpDef Crocalor or Coil Dunsparce that offer little to no defensive utility outside of specifically beating Misdreavus, and frankly I don't think these archetypes are as good as just running a balance team with Toedscool or Tinkatuff and aiming to win with your own Misdreavus first. I do admit that Sneasel carrying Bite (which has been dropping in popularity recently as people are opting for Brick Break instead) and Girafarig are underused options for offensive counterplay, but the former still requires some existing chip (not as easy as it sounds, since Draining Kiss recovers more HP against Sneasel than Substitute loses) and Girafarig is not only often reliant on speed ties but also is not remotely splashable, in part because it competes with Misdreavus for a slot on teams and isn't nearly as good.

For more replay evidence, NP Misdreavus won literally 5 of the 6 games I've played for NFE Open so far, and I didn't use it in the 6th game:
w1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nfe-1829050628-4vm4ha6ukrnis7oxs2edkc0am3ktar9pw
Misdreavus sets up on Naclstack and avoids an RK from both Raboot and an opposing Misdreavus. The game was over at this point, but imagine if I won the speed tie vs Tuthur's Misdreavus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nfe-1829054388-vepvvyo3gc8ufhsxrncwz6l4r9i9nq8pw
Another replay demonstrating how easy it is to execute a Misdreavus endgame. Toedscool was chipped down and Misdreavus set up its own path by weakening Sneasel to a point where getting a Substitute off at any point won.

w2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nfe-1834714509
Misdreavus admittedly didn't do much this game because lepton forfeited, but the whole gameplan centered around her. If lepton clicked anything else on turn 16 Misdreavus won on the spot, and at the point where lepton forfeited it easily cleaned up the remaining defensive core.

g2 I got cute and used a utility set, that's 1/6.

w3
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nfe-686077
I was put into a position where I had to give up damage on Toedscool, and I was reliant on a speed tie on turn 30 to avoid losing to their Misdreavus as a result.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nfe-686081
This is the game I posted at the top of the thread. Misdreavus sets up on Frogadier and comfortably cleans up a HO team.

Misdreavus has shown itself to be far too strong to keep in the tier, in my opinion. I'm open to tiering action on Fraxure as well, but I don't think it's had the same kind of showcasing in Open so far - it's felt pretty unhealthy, absolutely, but I've also only seen/played against it a handful of times, so I honestly can't comment much on it right now and I want to see how the meta develops counterplay against it from here on.
Gabite, on the other hand, I've just never seen do more than get 1 kill. On paper it destroys defensive cores, but frankly it's overly reliant on Swords Dance. It can't comfortably boost up against Pokemon like Foongus, Quaxwell, and even IDPress Naclstack, and instead is reliant on free switch-ins against truly passive Pokemon like Toedscool and Mareanie. Unlike other set-up sweepers, it's incredibly easy to throttle offensively because it's outsped by all the fast Pokemon like Frogadier that are not only optimal but arguably mandatory on every balance team right now.

Fundamentally I just can't agree with a ban on a Pokemon with only base 82 speed and 68/65/55 bulk. From my own (biased) perspective, it's not worth using over other breakers on most teams and I don't think we should be looking purely at defensive answers in a tier like NFE when we have breakers like SD Raboot, Meditite, Rufflet, and Pikachu available, none of which have more than 1 or 2 consistent, splashable answers. Sacrificial plays and offensive positioning has been the modus operandi of NFE since I started playing back in SS.
 

lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
is a Tiering Contributor
Hi council has a few announcements we’d like to make.

First of all, Mirbro has decided to step down. Thanks for your help early in the gen, you helped me navigate through leading for the first time at the start of a chaotic generation, i’m very grateful.

Joining the council (surprisingly he finally said yes) is Shing!!! I look forward to your unmatched insight and spicy takes.

Lastly, we are holding a slate this weekend so we would like as many opinions on Misdreavus, Naclstack, and Gabite as possible. Any other opinions on stuff you’d like to see on our slate are helpful as well.

My Personal Opinions (NOT council):
:sm/misdreavus:
imo missy is broken and deserves to be banned. Both stallbreaker and np (especially with draining kiss) are basically impossible to stop defensively and missy is so bulky that offensively checking it often requires a sack or two. Missy also dominates the hazard game, making spin much worse and buffing hazard stack immensely.

:sm/Naclstack:
nacl is also possibly broken, but not nearly as clear to me as missy. it’s obscenely bulky and salt cure is nuts in a meta without passive recovery, but i still don’t find it super overwhelming like others do. Def willing for a suspect after missy potentially goes cause without missy it’s probably way better

:sm/gabite:
now gabite i’m more mixed on. clearly it can break through defensive cores super easily once it gets an SD up, but the problem is getting the SD and not getting chipped down a lot. It can also be revenged super well with stuff like frogadier. While it’s def held back by missy, i’m not sure if it’s as much as nacl is. However, i’m not opposed to tiering action if it proves too strong.
 

5Dots

Chairs
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Going to jump in with my thoughts on Misdreavus:
:sv/Misdreavus:
Playing with and against it is a nightmare. Its Speed is super customizable, ranging from the standard max Speed to sweep teams to bulkier variants outrunning specific threats like Pawniard and bulky variants of Gabite. Its offensive movepool is just as versatile, as even Shadow Ball can be switched to Hex on bulkier or status-heavy builds. As an offensive threat, any one of its coverage moves can threaten a Pokemon in some form: Draining Kiss makes it more threatening against Gabite, Sneasel, Murkrow, and Drakloak (the latter which has highlighted how dire and poor hazard removal is), Thunderbolt takes out Rufflet and better threatens Mareanie, Energy Ball covers other Quax, Frogadier, and Naclstack all at once...even something like Icy Wind gets a better hit on Dartrix. Perhaps most importantly, the utility choices feel nearly limitless - Will-O-Wisp nullifies any physical attacker, Thief capitalizes on the lack of item removal, Taunt shuts down Stealth Rock setters, Pain Split makes it near limitless in its usefulness. Even Night Shade takes advantage of the low HP most NFEs sport.

I think Misdreavus is pretty unhealthy, but not broken. While its raw stats alone aren't entirely oppressive, the versatility is. It can pretty much do anything it wants and be nearly guarantee to do something positively noteworthy for its team. There's a reason there's so much Misdreavus usage.

Other thoughts on certain Pokemon:
:naclstack:
Naclstack is perhaps the most consistent Stealth Rock user in the tier. While very passive against Substitute Misdreavus variants since only boosted Salt Cures can reliably break its Subs, against most of everything else, it forces switches well, especially against premier Pokemon like Tinkatuff and Frogadier. Its massive bulk + Purifying Salt allows it to stomach pretty much any one hit barring strong wallbreakers like Meditite and Choice Band Gabite. Most Defoggers and Spinners hate dealing with Salt Cure - even Quaxwell, who is super effective AND has Encore, hates Salt Cure, causing it to Roost quickly. It's another aspect as to why the hazard game is superb in NFE and how hazard removal is heavily struggling. Knock Off and offensive pressure (mainly from super effective offensive Pokemon like Frog, Meditite, and Gabite) can quickly overtax it, as its damage output outside of Salt Cure is kind of low unless the Pokemon is frail and/or weak to Body Press.

On a second note, Iron Defense sets are still adept, but because they don't sport Stealth Rock, it's even more passive than usual, as it can't even provide the hazard support needed (thus needing another Rocks setter). It still fails to do anything against Misdreavus, and it fares even worse against Drakloak, a good Ghost-type in its own right with its Speed.
:Gabite:
It's a rock-solid Pokemon that is also healthy! It's also versatile like Misdreavus, but unlike its fellow Ghost, the lower Speed allows more Pokemon to keep it in check, like opposing Misdreavus and the uncommon Girafarig. It's a good defensive and offensive Stealth Rock setter with access to Swords Dance and Rough Skin, and its typing and stats allows it to check things like Raboot and Pawniard in a pinch. Swords Dance sets allow it to blow past Naclstack and better handle Misdreavus; defensive variants allow it to be a good general blanket check to Raboot and Pikachu. In any case, it can effectively check Tinkatuff, Mareanie, and Toedscool without too much trouble, which is very valuable in a tier full of sturdy hazard setters. If Misdreavus gets banned, I can definitely can see it getting better, but I still think it will be a great Pokemon to have in the meta.
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
And the votes are in!
:sv/misdreavus: :sv/naclstack:
Misdreavus and Naclstack are banned from SV NFE!


There isn't much to say about Misdreavus or Naclstack that hasn't already been said in other posts in this thread or in the reasoning above, but we'll be keeping a close eye on the how the meta shifts as a result of these changes, particularly with OMPL on the horizon. Please let us know how you feel about Gabite, Fraxure, Pikachu, and any other contentious Pokemon in the upcoming weeks!

Also, we put Dartrix in the VR at A-. It's fair to say the VR is somewhat out of date at this point, though, especially with Misdreavus and Naclstack gone, so look out for an update in the hopefully near future.
Tagging Kris to implement
 
hiya

I was theorymoning around, especially with Arctibax, and it’s nowhere to be seen, so now I’m posting about it until someone tells me its unviable.

Arctibax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head

Arctibax is a really good Swords Dancer, it’s main problem though is no Earthquake, but I don’t feel like that leads to it being unviable? A respectable speed tier with notable bulk allows it to threaten a lot of the threats of the tier like Toedscool, Drakloak, Gabite, Dartrix, and Frogadier, to name a few.

252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 424-504 (153 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Toedscool: 420-496 (147.8 - 174.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Drakloak Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Arctibax: 248-294 (77.2 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arctibax Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 366-432 (132.1 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dartrix: 264-312 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arctibax Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 267-315 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Arctibax: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO

There are definitely downsides to using Arctibax.

1. Steel-types

Prominent Steels like Pawniard and Tinkatuff can stay in and wall Arctibax, especially since it’s reliant on Outrage for damage output.

2. Like I said, reliant on Outrage

Outrage makes it easy for the aforementioned threats to switch in and wall it.

3. Why not use Fraxure or Gabite

This definitely hurts its viabilty, as Fraxure and Gabite are both much more reliable as a Dragon-type physical sweeper.

There are some positive that counteract this point though:

Arctibax is able to OHKO Toedscool, Gabite unboosted, and Murkrow, which the other two can’t, this allows Arctibax to separate itself from them enough to make it viable.

Also in more niche situations, Frogadier’s Ice Beam isn’t a problem for Arctibax unlike Fraxure and Gabite.

In my humble opinion, I feel that Arctibax has a good niche carved for it in NFE.
 
hiya

I was theorymoning around, especially with Arctibax, and it’s nowhere to be seen, so now I’m posting about it until someone tells me its unviable.

Arctibax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head

Arctibax is a really good Swords Dancer, it’s main problem though is no Earthquake, but I don’t feel like that leads to it being unviable? A respectable speed tier with notable bulk allows it to threaten a lot of the threats of the tier like Toedscool, Drakloak, Gabite, Dartrix, and Frogadier, to name a few.

252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 424-504 (153 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Toedscool: 420-496 (147.8 - 174.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Drakloak Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Arctibax: 248-294 (77.2 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arctibax Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 366-432 (132.1 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arctibax Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dartrix: 264-312 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arctibax Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frogadier: 267-315 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Arctibax: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO

There are definitely downsides to using Arctibax.

1. Steel-types

Prominent Steels like Pawniard and Tinkatuff can stay in and wall Arctibax, especially since it’s reliant on Outrage for damage output.

2. Like I said, reliant on Outrage

Outrage makes it easy for the aforementioned threats to switch in and wall it.

3. Why not use Fraxure or Gabite

This definitely hurts its viabilty, as Fraxure and Gabite are both much more reliable as a Dragon-type physical sweeper.

There are some positive that counteract this point though:

Arctibax is able to OHKO Toedscool, Gabite unboosted, and Murkrow, which the other two can’t, this allows Arctibax to separate itself from them enough to make it viable.

Also in more niche situations, Frogadier’s Ice Beam isn’t a problem for Arctibax unlike Fraxure and Gabite.

In my humble opinion, I feel that Arctibax has a good niche carved for it in NFE.
I think some of the downsides you could have mentioned could be answered. The first one could be solved by teaming it up with Magnemite to trap the steel types(mainly Tinkatuff) as Magnemite is extremely effective to do that. The drawback would be trying to make the team out of it since Mite isn't a particularly straightforward one to build around, or you're going to build around that can pressure the steel types.

I believe that if you're going to take advantage of Arctibax, it should be the bulkier aspect and the unique defensive attributes that differ from its competitors. As you mentioned, Arctibax doesn't get threatened by Ice moves unlike Fraxure and Gabite due to its typing, but it has also some key ones such as avoiding burns making it one of few physical sweepers that's not afraid of burns, and he's actually bulkier than both of them in every area. So in theory you could make it a bulky sweeper and cause havoc against bulkier/slower teams, so you somewhat back up its lackluster power and create a niche enough.

However, that's all in theory though so on paper things can be very different. Besides coverage and lack of powerful moves you mentioned, in my mind why I don't build with this mon comes down to the meta reasons. One of the biggest is the speed, being base 62 is very lackluster as a sweeper. While you don't need to worry too hard about being revenge killed by cleaners like Frogadier, you're still slower than the wallbreakers like Jolly Fraxure, Gabite, Raboot for example. But generally, a lot of teams would have coverage that targets your typings since other mons have similar typings without you having the ability to revenge kill them. The typing itself can be a double-edged sword as you're vulnerable to Stealth Rocks, which would limit your opportunities if you're running with Sub for example. And you'll have to deal with Rocks whether you like it or not due to the fact that hazard removals have a tough time stopping SR. It has also slightly more longevity checks/counters such as Haze Mareanie and Crocalor. You could actually cover those MUs, but the coverage of covering the supposed checks/MU isn't wide enough that it ends up a tricky 4mss situation. For example, you could easily counteract Roar Crocalor by running Dragon Tail and then force a random RNG position where you could have an advantage. But then you're facing a non-Crocalor team which makes this move a bit more useless, or you're facing Mareanie with Haze(not a common move) or Toxic, and suddenly you're not going to stop it if you run it with Dragon Tail. That's also something the competitors don't struggle with as a whole because they don't exactly have a concrete mon that stops it IMO.

I do think Arctibax has a niche the more I think about it, so maybe you're onto something. It's hard to pinpoint it as I think setting up generally is extremely difficult as the meta looks top-heavy on pivoting and hazard stacking right now, and the lack of Eviolite removal due to Knock Off mons being very centralized into Magnemite, Dartrix, and Eeel kind of enforces your wallbreakers to have immediate power or quick cleaning potential which Articbax kinda lacks at. If only it got its signature move, Dragon Dance and Ice Shard... Such is the NFE dilemma where the mid-evo doesn't have the full moveset so it could feel like a complete Pokemon.

Also, I'll be making another NFE post real soon, just had a job I had to take care of tyvm.
 
So I recently won the NFE Open tournament and am quite proud of myself as I wanted to build teams for every game in mind. Every team was posted each round in detail at most of them, so if you would like to take a watch, I'll link it right here: R2, R3, R4, and Finals(Most recent teams after the Mis/Nacl ban!!!). I didn't get to tell in detail for the final round so I'll briefly explain it while connecting them with my meta thoughts. OMPL is also close and I found the timing fit perfectly enough to give me another reason to make this post.


I had already some ideas in mind for the meta w/o them considering I expected Missy and Nacl to get banned way before I joined the council. Quickly realized that Balance would become much better as Missy exploited the lack of power and put so much pressure on Sub NP and Stallbreaker sets while Naclstack put a lot of restraint on the teambuilding aspect, although he did that just in general which will be important to understand later. Not only would you have more flexibility in picking mons, but balance overall does not have to worry about these types of threats giving them a lot of tricky and difficult interaction. That's also why a lot of my builds pre and post-ban consisted of a lot of balance cores as I found their potential to be huge despite the problems they had to deal with. So I believe they're still useable, and definitely have a lot more exploration in meanwhile.

I do not think they're the strongest playstyle though. That would go more towards hazard-stacked and pivot-focused teams, hell both of them also work wonders together. Now pivoting has never been truly unviable, but in the earlier meta pivot-based teams were rather weak due to a lack of strong abusers so the pivot flow had a ton of flaws. It took Raboot, and most importantly Frogadier to give pivoting light again. Still, they were not at a level I believe they're now due to Missy and Naclstack. Missy had that clutch bulk by managing to survive most things at 100-75% ish and Naclstack still created restraints on pivot teams as they had to react carefully against Salt Cure, effectively killing momentum a lot of times. They were very excellent enough that I build a ton of them despite that. Now I think they're definitely at a level where I think it's a load of a headache to face them. Mainly because trying to hit Frogadier is like trying to hit Gen 8 Pikachu, except the fact it has goddamn boots to avoid hazard damage. Anyway building them isn't as difficult personally. Easy pivot cores I've abused are Frogadier x Eel/Mite(Eel is more flexible) with optional uses such as Raboot, Pikachu, Drakloak, Murkrow, and Fletchinder for example. Why I say optional is bc they're not that mandatory and pivot teams have a ton of underused exploration in terms of approaching the game more offensively. I'll say that Eel does still feel very mandatory for pivot teams because it's one of few that can have full momentum against any defensive Tinkatuff set, which is notoriously tricky to switch in and as well kind of stops the momentum like Naclstack.

Offense would definitely have to adjust these bans as their straightforward gameplan has now been infected by slower interactions. Instead, you've to be wary of your positions, or else the defensive teams can wear down your team instead. That doesn't mean Offense like HO are bad. Glimmet and Screens teams can still force pressure into the face on many matchups. But the straightforward type of gameplay does have taken a hit where I'll see even offensive teams have to sometimes play slower at times. But I do think Offense will adapt either way as this tier does not have a reliable defense in the long term.

I want to mention there's another type of "offense", but really it's just a part of Mite shenanigans as Mite enables Wallbreakers like Dragon Spam, CB, and Specs mons after getting rid of Tinkatuff aka the backbone of many teams. I consider Mite more like an anti-meta type of thing overall. You could say it's "fishing" but I think it's more like if that thing really hold so many of these insane threats back then it's worth fishing for Tink MU and then making your team doable against everything else. This is very much shown in my replays where I build HO teams with Mite so I could clean the opposing team with Misdreavus and Sneasel, then I used Mite in order to strengthen the win-con sweepers like Cosmic Power Girafarig, Bulk Up Vigoroth, Nasty Plot Murkrow, Moody Snorunt, etc. My entire point here was to showcase the importance of Tinkatuff in the meta, and being able to remove it with ease will open the flood gate and the number of threats is something you can't realistically check everyone at once. What I mentioned here is just a fraction of what you're capable of doing with it. Mind you, that mon was unranked until I began showing its effect although it had some key roles as to threaten Naclstack and threatening Mareanie. Eventually, I realized its effect and here we are right now. I will mention it has their builds are suspectable for their mid-defensive synergy so they can get blown back and Tinkatuff with Brick Break will beat it. Will say if you're forcing some of the strongest utility in the game to use Brick Break for one pokemon does speak for itself. I'll keep continuing exploring this if it has healthy counterplay or not tbh.

Oh yeah, I'll have to quickly mention that Missy is gone, Drakloak is the premier spinblocker. Drakloak is very consistently good as a spinblocker but it has no way to stop Defogging. With the introduction of Dartrix, hazard control is definitely more manageable as Dartrix is good on its own. I will say Fletchinder also benefits from this ban extremely well so maybe I won't be talking mad shit to it. Okay to be fair, why was that thing ranked A- in the first while Fraxure was like B like hello??? Anyway, I'm a bit off-topic but yes Defog is very solid. Maybe Pawn may be making an appearance with Defiant ability and its valuable traits. But I feel like Pawn is so much easier to check in these days so I'm very conflicted with this mon. But in the I really want to build a team out of it. Toedscool has also a really cool tech, but I'll be talking about that in the next post honestly.


When I visualize how Gen 9 NFE meta is going to be played it would be putting heavy emphasis on mid-game interactions. After you've done some knocking, throwing out the hazards, chipping, and weakening their mon for your cleaners/endgame sweepers in a slow manner. All mons are "bulky" at the surface but behind that are their faulty flaws such as weak base power, unfinished movepool and easily being able to take advantage of. Take their Eviolite and rip the longevity lol. But in order to get that, you'll do the long game of weakening and get that midgame interaction before going to the endgame. The early game doesn't have that impact too hard on mid-game tbh, and it's centralized on sudden mons. I do believe you'll see more endgame sweeps by the factors from midgame than winning with a wincon setup like Vigo and Girafarig.


In my mind I create these marks I gotta check whenever I build like if I am able to cover or take advantage of those interactions from these Pokemon and their sets. Mostly because I see them a lot and as well see if I am actually able to handle them. As a note I'll mention those mons that I think I'll be seeing in this current meta so take this a grain of salt.

Lead / Early game mons aka switching in at T1:
:Glimmet: (HO Lead)
Frogadier: (2nd Fastest Pivot in the tier but )
:Eelektrik: :Mareanie: (Takes advantage of lead Frogadier)
:Raboot: (If no lead Frogadier)
:Drakloak: (Specifically specs or attack sets so niche)

Midgame Defensive mons that won't die as easily bc recovery, could lowkey wear your entire team down:
:Eelektrik: :Mareanie: :Dartrix: :Dunsparce:

Midgame Wallbreakers, usually I'll see them being pulled out to break stuff
:Gabite: (SD and it usually performs better than an endgame cleaner IMO)
:Raboot:(Extremely good at getting an SD due to getting favourable positions by forcing the opponent to switch out, boots 4 atk too)
:Meditite:(Scarf xd)
CB users, but too arbitrary to answer. I would expect like :Fraxure: :Gabite: :Zweilous: :Rufflet: :Staravia: :Raboot: though

Endgame sweepers that's scary af and you'll have to be ready for them:
:Raboot: (SD Raboot at the end lowkey feels impossible if you don't have Mareanie and Drakloak)
:Vigoroth: (Will win-con you if you are not prepared for these key techs in its BU sets)
:Girafarig: (Nasty Plot and CM Rest are both horror time
:Fraxure: (DD and SD are some insane comeback sets, but easier to check in)
:Pawniard: (Really hard to build around, but its sweeping potential should be massive tbh)

Endgame cleaners, no setups:
:Frogadier: (No explanation needed)
:Raboot: (4 atk with Sucker Punch is that cleaning set)
:Sneasel: (While it has SD, most of the time you don't really use it to set up and sweep, but instead to clean up the entire game)
Scarfers should be added here, but too arbitrary to answer. I would expect :Meditite: :Staravia: :Quaxwell:(uncommon set) though.


Not gonna lie, I feel like a bit lazy at the end and just felt like posting there. It's also way too late for me to write on these so that's on me lol. With that said I'll be posting a new one talking about some sets + mon I used at the tournament, posting and talking about some new cores I've been thinking about. After that then maybe an NFE PR/List for OMPL if the demand is wanted. Anyway gn.
 
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When I visualize how Gen 9 NFE meta is going to be played it would be putting heavy emphasis on mid-game interactions. After you've done some knocking, throwing out the hazards, chipping, and weakening their mon for your cleaners/endgame sweepers in a slow manner. All mons are "bulky" at the surface but behind that are their faulty flaws such as weak base power, unfinished movepool and easily being able to take advantage of. Take their Eviolite and rip the longevity lol. But in order to get that, you'll do the long game of weakening and get that midgame interaction before going to the endgame. The early game doesn't have that impact too hard on mid-game tbh, and it's centralized on sudden mons. I do believe you'll see more endgame sweeps by the factors from midgame than winning with a wincon setup like Vigo and Girafarig.
I'm looking back at this section and I decided to go a little into this before continuing the new topic. Felt like this was written in a very half-assed way and could have been told in a broader way. That's for trying to write this at 2 am while feeling exhausted after a full day at the gaming lan.

When I visualize how the meta would be played out in the field, I empathize with the mid-game being where you'll be playing around most of the time turns wise and it'll determine your late/end game usually the pace taking quite an amount of turns. Why it's like that comes to these factors that combine together that I mentioned above. Defensive mons are typically very fat in bulk most of in the field as the meta lacks versatile Knock Off users to hit different defensive mons. An example I could go for is that the most common Knock Off users Tinkatuff, Toedscool, and Dartrix have very linear switch-ins that end up you seeing these same interactions/positions from common mons. RestTalk Eel comes in at any moves from Tinkatuff, pivots out to gain momentum, Dartrix switches in Toedscool and gets free Knock/Defog/Roost, and Dartrix shares very similar Knock Absorbers like them. This doesn't mean that they'll gain much progress as you'll get complex turns at some point so you can get progressive positions. But my point is that the Knock game is extremely linear and covering those interactions is naturally so easy that your other ones won't get knocked. This gives many of the defensive mons a win-con longevity and noticeable bulk enough to create a gameplay of wearing down the opposing team. The defensive mons does also have solid defensive typing synergy that carries decent utility tools, and combines with their bulk I don't believe there's a single mon with raw base power that can rush down aggressively early on. This is why I don't think the lead/early game has any real impact and at best helps you get an advantageous position unless you build your team specifically for straightforward gameplay like HO. The list I mentioned at early/lead game typically has such centralization that discourages offensive turns, but they themself will not force straightforward turns as they're extremely checked by the defensive mons, giving them at best just a spike, knock, or a small positional advantage.
But the defensive aspect is only telling half part of the story of this. As mentioned above, NFE defense itself has some really bad flaws. A lot of the mons don't have a lot of powerful moves or hit a lot of that target, even both at times from just its lackluster movepool or a huge 4mss struggle. Many of them don't have recovery or the consistency of it, making their longevity quite suspectable despite the bulk. They're also quite vulnerable to taunt and substitute variance. Also, hazards games are something too complex for me to explain everything at once, but the simple answer is that the mid-game interaction won't last a hundred turns at least. As for how the late/end-game will be played out, most of the time it'll end with the Pokemon cleaning up without the need to setup as setting up a late game is not as easy for many different factors to take into account. But setup sweeping is still very viable, and very dangerous as hell which is why in mid-game many teams will react to it by limiting its opportunities or having a tech that's specifically for them like D-Tail against Vigoroth and Girafarig,
In my eyes, early games have little impact on the game, while mid-game matters the most and has a lot of complexity which ends up making the turns last much longer, and late/end game is usually very straightforward as it's determined from the mid-game.

The list showcasing the midgame mons was just something I wanted anyone to see as a way to answer "What type of defensive mons would I usually will see in the NFE meta". Well frankly that list is pretty bad for many reasons I can point out so I'll be fixing that in here real quick.
These are the defensive mons you should know if you want to build offensive cores as they're the ones you'll encounter in the current meta.
Staple-Alike: :Mareanie: :Gabite: :Dartrix: :Eelektrik::Tinkatuff: :Toedscool: :Drakloak:
Not as common, but noticeable enough to consider: :Quaxwell: :Fletchinder: :Crocalor: :Dunsparce:
Staple alike usually has very relevant typing against the threats or the bulk + movepool that helps it check things that are difficult to check. The not as common one has their difficulty to be built around but usually has their noticeable attributes to be factored to build with. Build offensive cores against these and your team would be at a good start.


Alright I'll finally talk about what I wanted the most!!! Talking about my sets + these mons.

:Vigoroth: @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 156 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Slack Off
- Throat Chop

Vigoroth was one of the first I wanted to build around as it was mainly limited by Naclstack and needed other mons to check other threats. With that thing gone, I was ready to build one right away, especially since I was in a Magnemite phase. Funny enough I ended up with an Eel team since I felt like the mite teams I had felt a bit too predictable with the cores. Also, pivot spam was pretty easy to build around so I stuck with that through the finals after finishing my prep for 5dots. The EVs here were actually designed for the sub-set. Sub blocks Status and D-Tail from Gabite while I could use Throat Chop to block Crocalor's Roar and hit Drakloak at the same time. But I just realized that thing has their own apparent flaws so I changed back to taunt. I just forgot to change the EVs back to 252 Speed EVs as it was designed to take 24.7% max from Crocalor's Flamethrower while outspending max speed Adamant Gabite.
Vigoroth is an extremely controversial Pokemon in my eyes. It easily takes advantage of the flaws of the meta, and arguably has a better wincon set with taunt than Misdreavus due to speed and recovery. While they don't have the perfect coverage, I found that Throat Chop and Facade cover a lot of targets and have restrained counterplay. The best way to handle both of them has to be relying on D-Tail from Gabite and Drakloak, which are both very common and the fact it's mainly an endgame sweeper means that they're back and not active in the field. I will say finding opportunities for it to setup is extremely easy and stopping is the difficult part if you don't have either of those two mons. The meta lacks really strong special attackers and fighting coverage so I think Vigo is very good in this meta rn. I'll keep a good eye on it. I will say it can run a lot of different ass sets in up for your preference. A stall breaker set could even work too btw. Will mention another flaw Vigo has is that it feels like it has a very weird 4mss issue the more I try to build with it, so" it requires thinking outside of the box" type of thinking to build a team with it.


:Raboot: @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch

Immediately build with this set here as I didn't need to worry about Naclstack for coverage issues. SD Raboot is definitely an unhinged threat to this meta rn. Can turn around against its supposed checks like Mareanie and Fletchinder as 2+ Double Edge has the ability to OHKO them if they lose their Eviolite. Not sure if it's the best sweeper, but definitely that can immediately turn the midgame into an endgame scenario. I would say the flaws this set suffers would be it needs the right support, especially the one who can get rid of Eviolite from those mons mentioned above. And it's not impossible to stop it as a healthy Gabite, Drakloak sets and Crocolar are good against it as well. I do think the pivot boot is still the best set, but SD gives him a huge mixup for sure. Also for anyone using boots Raboot, Sucker Punch feels very mandatory rn for Frogadier.

:Zorua-Hisui: @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
Now the support part with SD Raboot was a tricky one as getting rid of Eviolite from Mareanie is not easy, especially if you have a Raboot in your team. Mareanie at this point has teammates that will gladly take Knock Off. So after thinking a lot, I found the perfect opportunity to use my little cutie fox, Zorua but with Hisui. I used Zorua back in Gen 8 NFE with Magmar before and would claim I am the most experienced Zorua user out of anyone in NFE so getting another opportunity to build with this made me happy. Raboot kinda forces the opponent to react quickly, especially if I threaten their Tinkatuff. So the goal was basically to get Knock Off on Raboot checks so they'll get swept by SD Raboot after. The biggest difference between Zorua-H and Zorua is that I wanted to have Will O Wisp in order to cripple things and Hex + Status did give Zorua-H some mad pressure against Mareanie. I don't think they're vastly different so it depends on what you want to do with them. For the match against 5dots, Mareanie lost their Eviolite in an attempt to trap me, but Zorua-H did help me because if I didn't Knock Girafarig, Raboot couldn't OHKO them from that range so Zorua-H did way more work than I expected. Very happy I went with this, and maybe in the future I'll make another attempt with this mon again, especially when HOME comes out.

:Croagunk: @ Eviolite
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Vacuum Wave

I did not test any of my teams, so this was something I wanted to build. TL;DR is that it setups on Mareanie while Mareanie can't damage it back. At that point I found haze Mareanie kinda niche af so I betted I would face Abriel with Mareanie w/o one, especially when they're using my teams smh. Unfortunately, I kinda screwed up using this mon, and it didn't do as I expected. I will say it does has a niche in this meta so it's not completely unviable in this meta lol. But I had a genuine use for it as I had other mons I wanted to check with the calc below me.
252+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 228-268 (90.8 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 240-288 (103.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Toedscool: @ Eviolite
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Foul Play
Tldr: 0 Atk Toedscool Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drakloak: 198-234 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Copied
Core this with Frogadier and you'll be putting pressure on Drakloak's speed shenanigans. Foul Play also helps vs SD Gabite btw. Bit sad it didn't do anything at the game, but I did some bad moves that were very obvious to be fair lol.
Anyway, Toedscool is still a good mon and then it can still create long-term progress from its move pool alone. But my take on Toedscool as a spiker is that you'll have to sacrifice your recovery option just because I can't see spikes + leed seed work in this meta anymore. Dartrix being so common is putting Toedscool under so much wasted time that I don't see the position where you'll have a healthy Toedscool with Spikes. At that point, you should focus on pressuring and enforcing the spikes on the field as Toedscool has that option. Now as a spinner though, Leed Seed + Toxic + Knock is very much really solid as you're targetting everything here. But especially putting some sort of pressure against Drakloak. So Toedscool is still very good in my eyes, but I would like people to stop using Spikes + Leed Seed. I recommend Wish support if you want Toedscool to have some recovery thx.

:Snorunt:
escaped from ubers (Snorunt) @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Frost Breath
- Protect
- Disable
I don't have many thoughts on Moody atm, but I am certain it can cheese a team if it gets the right boost. 180 Speed lets it outspeed everyone after a moody boost while the bulk is something I genuinely forget lol oops. Frost Breath is better than Ice Beam because crit goes through those boosts so I am not dealing with that setup war. Disable + Protect broke combo. If I'll ever use this mon again, I think I would have on a random top player like Skysolo/Fade and Jonfilch/Fade just because wynaut. I've no regrets pulling that set on the Ubers Leader after Ubers banned Moody btw.

:Magnemite: @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 76 SpA / 68 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder Wave
The last mon I'll speak on the set. I've already talked Mite before so no need to introduce it. I'm here to explain quickly my process on my weird EV spread if you haven't noticed already. Well in my mindset, it all depends on what my teammates can handle or not. For this EV spread, 76 Def Evs is designed to guarantee to take 2+ Brick Break from Jolly Sneasel, while 76 SpA Modest OHKOs boots Sneasel guaranteed and SpD Evs lets me take 3 hits against Surf Mareanie and the speed is for outspeeding Crocolar and Hattrem. As you can see Mite is very customized with its spreads, but you don't need to do that like I did. I am also very sure I'm not completely guaranteed with the calcs as 2+ Brick Break has 31% on Mite after rocks damage, or that Mareanie has 1.6% chance to 3hko my non-Eviolite Magnemite. Well then again, that's just a skill issue for me considering I like to have my calcs as perfect as possible.


I'd like to keep most of those cores to myself, especially when teams got deleted again after I updated my browser ;_;;;;;;;
However, I'll share a core real quickly as I did briefly mention it up there.

:Girafarig: @ Eviolite
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Earthquake

Girafarig looks like a really solid wish pass as it has both speed and bulk so it was one of those who caught my attention. While I think CM and NP set are better, I'm always much more interested to build defensive cores in order to explore the untapped potential. Mons I believe it has good synergy would go to Gabite, Toedscool, Tinkatuff, and the general mons that lack recovery. Dazzling Gleam hits Sneasel and other Dark types, but EQ has some small pressure against Pawn and Tinkatuff. The set I posted doesn't have EVs and Ability since I am writing this at 1:42 am rn and I haven't had time to build this team out of my head.

Maybe I'll be making a NFE PR/List for OMPL idk, we will see on tomorrow or Thursday. gn
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Beep boop beep baaaaaaaap... and...
:sv/magnemite:
Magnemite is banned from SV NFE!

lepton5DotsGreybaumShing
MagnemiteBanBanBanAbstain

Similar to the Vulpix ban from last generation, this ban is really more about its ability, Magnet Pull.

Why now?
Magnemite's ability, Magnet Pull, has often been looked at with some distaste across Smogon, but it's safe to say that SV is the first generation where NFE has had to contend with an otherwise balanced user of the ability being viable. Defensive Tinkatuff, in particular, is one of our few Stealth Rock setters and a very important staple of the tier, and having a trapper that can delete it just by switching in is simply not healthy gameplay, reducing skill expression and greatly amplifying the power of set-up sweepers like Vigoroth, Fraxure, and even Dragonair to an unacceptable degree, particularly with traditional "counterplay" like Shed Shell not being viable in the tier.

Home?
While we discussed leaving Magnemite unbanned with Home coming in a matter of days, we believe that not only are the returning Pokemon not going to resolve the fundamental issues with Magnet Pull but whether they do or not is also largely irrelevant; Magnet Pull is unhealthy for the tier, and we decided it'd be better to ban it prior to Week 2 of OMPL going live.

Please stay tuned for more tiering action when Home is released!
Tagging Kris to implement
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
We forgot to announce it (oops), but
:sv/basculin-white-striped: and :sv/ursaring: were quickbanned day 0 of Home, for obvious reasons; if you really need more detail feel free to contact me.
Joining them, however...

:sv/sneasel-hisui:
Hisuian Sneasel is banned from SV NFE!

lepton5DotsGreybaumShing
Hisuian SneaselBanBanBanBan
Hisuian QwilfishDo Not BanBanDo Not BanDo Not Ban
Hisuian SliggooDo Not BanDo Not BanDo Not BanDo Not Ban

Outpacing the entire tier and KOing most of it with Swords Dance boosted 120BP STABs, it should come as no surprise that we voted Ban on this lil guy. Sandygast and Paldean Wooper were the only consistent answers found, neither of which are particularly viable, and its Stealth Rock resistance distinguishes it from other fast set-up sweepers like Raboot and Sneasel by allowing it to more reliably hold Eviolite, which in turn gives it a plethora of set-up opportunities.

We also voted on two other new Hisuian NFEs, but ultimately both are seen as balanced - whether that remains the case in future weeks, only time will tell; 5Dots in particular has raised concerns about how freely Hisuian Qwilfish can set up spikes, with its Poison/Dark typing being a strong deterrent to standard hazard removal options like Dartrix and Hattrem. You can read his reasoning for his votes here.

We've also heard complaints of a few other Pokemon, particularly Fraxure. Rest assured we're listening, and I'll be pushing to update the watchlist when my follow council members are awake, so keep an eye on it - I've personally got my eyes on Hisuian Qwilfish, Fraxure, and to a lesser extent Vigoroth and Stantler ahead of anything else. Gabite, in contrast, has fallen off a bit. Let us know how you get on!
Tagging Kris to implement
 
Beep boop beep baaaaaaaap... and...
:sv/magnemite:
Magnemite is banned from SV NFE!

lepton5DotsGreybaumShing
MagnemiteBanBanBanAbstain

Similar to the Vulpix ban from last generation, this ban is really more about its ability, Magnet Pull.

Why now?
Magnemite's ability, Magnet Pull, has often been looked at with some distaste across Smogon, but it's safe to say that SV is the first generation where NFE has had to contend with an otherwise balanced user of the ability being viable. Defensive Tinkatuff, in particular, is one of our few Stealth Rock setters and a very important staple of the tier, and having a trapper that can delete it just by switching in is simply not healthy gameplay, reducing skill expression and greatly amplifying the power of set-up sweepers like Vigoroth, Fraxure, and even Dragonair to an unacceptable degree, particularly with traditional "counterplay" like Shed Shell not being viable in the tier.

Home?
While we discussed leaving Magnemite unbanned with Home coming in a matter of days, we believe that not only are the returning Pokemon not going to resolve the fundamental issues with Magnet Pull but whether they do or not is also largely irrelevant; Magnet Pull is unhealthy for the tier, and we decided it'd be better to ban it prior to Week 2 of OMPL going live.

Please stay tuned for more tiering action when Home is released!
Tagging Kris to implement
I don't play much NFE so maybe this is a dumbass question but why ban Magnemite and not Magnet Pull even though Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were banned instead of the pokes. Is the logic for not doing this Nosepass coming out with DLC potentially? If so, why is Arena Trap banned even though Trapinch can get it and Shadow Tag even though Wynaut can get it? (If this is deleted for being "too short" can the mod at least answer my question after they do if so thanks.)
 
I don't play much NFE so maybe this is a dumbass question but why ban Magnemite and not Magnet Pull even though Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were banned instead of the pokes. Is the logic for not doing this Nosepass coming out with DLC potentially? If so, why is Arena Trap banned even though Trapinch can get it and Shadow Tag even though Wynaut can get it? (If this is deleted for being "too short" can the mod at least answer my question after they do if so thanks.)
Bc is the only magnet pull user in the tier. If there was 2 viable magnet pull user you ban the ability but in this case there is only one
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I don't play much NFE so maybe this is a dumbass question but why ban Magnemite and not Magnet Pull even though Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were banned instead of the pokes. Is the logic for not doing this Nosepass coming out with DLC potentially? If so, why is Arena Trap banned even though Trapinch can get it and Shadow Tag even though Wynaut can get it? (If this is deleted for being "too short" can the mod at least answer my question after they do if so thanks.)
Pabloaram was right about the reasoning for the Magnemite ban. We checked with OM staff before implementing the ban, and were advised that as Magnemite is the only Pokemon to be demonstrated as unhealthy with Magnet Pull, it should be the target of a ban instead of the ability. Magneton, in comparison, was banned at the very start of Generation 9 because of its absurdly strong (comparatively) stat spread, particularly when bolstered by Analytic; Magnet Pull was not a factor.

We're also in a unique situation here, as Generation 9 is the first where Magnemite(/Magnet Pull) has been considered an unhealthy element in the tier. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, in contrast, are both bans that were implemented before the gen started, as they've been demonstrably unhealthy in previous generations and nothing has changed to justify giving them another chance. If we had made them legal at the start Diglett would most likely have been banned instead of Arena Trap, as was the case in Little Cup.
If we get another Magnet Pull user, however, then yes a Magnet Pull ban is on the table. Hope this helped!
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
This is not a suspect post.


A heated discussion on Hisuian Qwilfish started yesterday evening, and it's clear that a number of people consider Hisuian Qwilfish to be an unhealthy presence in the tier and are requesting tiering action. I'm writing this post because I want to provide some transparency regarding the situation and how it's likely to develop from here on out.

First, I want to make it clear that we are listening. Hisuian Qwilfish has been the #1 consideration on my watchlist, and from what I understand this view was and is shared by the other council members. Below is a screencap of me initiating a discussion roughly 15 minutes after the Hisuian Qwilfish conversation started, and the council vote resulted in a unanimous agreement to run a suspect. None of us believe Hisuian Qwilfish is broken to the point of justifying a quickban, but we absolutely want to be democratic about this.

1687820246167.png


A suspect thread was posted roughly four hours later, but as I'm sure you've noticed it's not live. After discussion with the OM mod team it has been made clear to us that with the current level of activity on the NFE ladder running a suspect is not feasible. I've seen the stats, and I agree with them. It's not happening.

1687820222360.png


So. We're in a tricky situation. Nobody on council believes a quickban is justified here. Metagame development could convince us otherwise and I'll make an effort to check-in with the team to see if this occurs, but to sum up: we are not quickbanning Hisuian Qwilfish at this time.

We're in discussion with the OM mod team to see what other routes we have available to us, including using alternate qualification methods instead of the traditional suspect ladder, and one way or another we will be having a public vote on Hisuian Qwilfish, but this is not going to be resolved until OMPL has finished. For now, Hisuian Qwilfish is here to stay. I know this isn't the resolution many of you were hoping for, and for that I am sorry.
 
:braixen::gabite::kubfu::quaxwell::qwilfish-hisui::tinkatuff:
PandaDoux vs King Leo V W
So home dropped and i knew qwilfish-hisui + tinkatuff were gonna be EVERYWHERE, and i thought that braixen could take advantage of Tinkatuff very well, unfortunately KLV had a Carkoal + Drakloak, so the star of the team had one of the worst MU it could have so it was sad, i had Gabite because qwilfish, i had Quaxwell because it can spin against qwilfish while Dartrix loses to it (quaxwell too but i wasn't thinking of SD Spikes at this time) Kubfu was there because it's a baby bear and that is lovely and tinkatuff is here because qwilfish, it's mold breaker because i didn't wanna face a hattrem since i knew KLV was not gonna bring something standard, and also qwilfish is here because it exists.
:gabite::hattrem::murkrow::qwilfish-hisui::sliggoo-hisui::sneasel:(i have changed sneasel's set, Bite was over Dig but i would have probably play better with Sneasel and won with Dig so i'm mad, & Brick Break was over Ice Shard)
PandaDoux vs ojr L
I was very scared of what ojr could bring so i wanted to be unpredictable and bring HO, which was a good call against 5 mons of his team and absolutely horrible against the last one, Drakloak, i searched a good screener for a long time, i tried Drakloak & Morgrem but Morgrem doesn't hit Qwilfish at all and in a Qwilfish meta i hate that, and Drakloak doesn't have Taunt so it was very weak to Spikes with it, so i went for Hattrem, it's not the best, but it was doing ok in test, the other 5 mons are just breakers, qwilfish is here because it's qwilfish, gabite can check qwilfish and setup rocks, sliggoo checks Frogadier/Drakloak, Murkrow is a good breaker and Sneasel is the fastest pokemon of the tier, i'm not really good at building HO so i don't think this team is great, i would say it's okay at fishing some MUs but i wanted to trust my guts and go for it
:dartrix::frogadier::raboot::qwilfish-hisui::sliggoo-hisui::tinkatuff:
PandaDoux vs Instruct W
At this point i felt like i was bringing a lot of crazy stuff, none of my teams were really standard before, so i thought i could have a week where i just use something standard and effective, I've never used Dartrix before this week even if it's one of the best Pokemon of the tier so i felt like it was time to use it, i also noticed that most of the teams in W3/4 really lacked a fighting resist so i thought Raboot could be a good idea and i went for a Raboot + Frogadier Scarf Stack Hazards, it's also the first week i'm using Tinkatuff Pickpocket, and this ability is crazy lmao that makes so much 50/50 in a game sometimes, and Sliggoo was here because it checks Frogadier and i like sliggoo
:dunsparce::frogadier::qwilfish-hisui::skrelp::tinkatuff::toedscool:(i'm hiding Dunsparce spread because it's not from me)
PandaDoux vs Tuthur W
Crazy Skrelp 100% WR please do not use it i wanna keep it at 100%, same for Braixen & Kubfu thank you, the team was not built around it at all, but around Dunsparce CM because Dunsparce is broken but we'll get to this later, i don't really remember why i put some of the mons in the team but the team works well, i knew Tuthur wasn't gonna expect Qwilfish Gunk Shot so i went for SD 3Atk, Tuff is tuff, at this point i'm not even thinking of why i should put it or not on a team because this mon is so good, the first and last time i used Toedscool, which is actually a really good Pokemon i underestimated it, Frogadier because we need to RK Qwilfish and i wanted more Spikes, and finally broken Skrelp, here's the reason i wanted Skrelp and not Sliggoo-Hisui or Mareanie: i think Mareanie is not doing well in the meta right now, every time i saw a Mareanie it kinda was lackluster, it's a bit too passive, TSpikes sucks because Qwilfish has like 90% Usage since W3, Toxic + Infestation is fine but it's not enough to me, kinda let Qwilfish pretty free still, so yeah i just don't like it personnally in this meta, and i wanted a Toxic for Dunsparce because Dunsparce is broken, and Sliggoo doesn't have that, so i searched for a long time and went for Skrelp, Skrelp checks Frogadier pretty well while being threatening, it does a very good job at weakening both Tinkatuff and Qwilfish which is really huge (as we saw in the game, Skrelp basically killed Qwilfish + Tuff + Frogadier) (we also saw that the game came down to a 1v1 Dunsparce, fortunately mine was faster)
:dartrix::drakloak::eelektrik::frogadier::qwilfish-hisui::tinkatuff:
PandaDoux vs Stareal W
Last team i made for this OMPL and i went for paraspam, i wanted to build around Eelektrik because i felt like Stareal was kinda weak to it most of the weeks, i also went for a Frogadier Specs because Stareal was lacking some good water resists since a couple of weeks so i thought it was gonna be a great threat against him, (it ended up doing nothing because Sliggoo + Mareanie like what the frog) and then i went for a paraspam because, as we saw in this game, yellow magic is broken, i thought paraspam + Frogadier Specs was great, i didn't actually did a lot of games with the team so i can't tell if this is a great team but it seems to work pretty well, Drakloak is another paralysis spreader and takes advantage of paraspam with Hex, Qwilfish is Qwilfish, and Dartrix is cool
Overall i feel like i've been doing very well this OMPL, i think i was being very creative with a total of 4 mons with 1/2 Usage through the whole season and 3 of them are at 100% WR so i made it work, i think i understand the meta very well and know how to build around it, i hope i could have played more because i had some great ideas, like Glimmet Corrosion or Thwackey Leech Seed (this one is not my idea it's from my game vs Tuthur but i wanna make it work) but i don't think i'm gonna build until Qwilfish's suspect, it feels like a waste of time since i'm pretty sure it gets banned (hopefully).
Now i just wanna talk about a few Pokemons that, in my opinion should be in the top spots of the watchlist, and that i think deserved to be banned. (I know Qwilfish-H has been voting for a suspect test, but i'm just posting my reasoning)
:qwilfish-hisui: Qwilfish-Hisui :qwilfish-hisui:
Ok so obviously, i expressed myself a couple of times in the OM Discord, i think Qwilfish-H is unhealthy, basically every teams are built around it, most of the teams are just Qwilfish + Tinkatuff + Drakloak or Frogadier to revenge kill Qwilfish + something to check Frogadier + whatever that can weaken Qwilfish pretty well + filler, Qwilfish is doing an incredible job at everything it does, Taunt + Spikes is really good to stack hazards, SD 3Atk is always getting a kill, SD Taunt or SD Spikes are also great options, even Sub SD is fine depending on the MU, nothing really deals with it on paper, most of the time you deal with Qwilfish, with your own Qwilfish, which doesn't really look like a healthy way to deal with it, Gabite Offensive takes like 45% from Crunch, Gabite Defensive checks it well but kinda sucks overall, Tinkatuff can be walled by Taunt so it's free Spikes or loses to SD Waterfall, Crocalor, unless you build the team around it, you usually don't use it, Wooper is obviously only viable because of Qwilfish (+ some tools it has but idt it'll be even niche in a no Qwilfish meta), Stantler checks Qwilfish very well but let's be real, it doesn't really do anything barring Trick and checking Qwilfish, would be an awesome Pokemon if it had Ice Beam, but unfortunately it's not the case, i just feel like i'm naturally prepared for Stantler, and if there's a Stantler, Qwilfish can still make progress with Spikes.
Also, the lack of hazards removal means that Spikes are insanely good, and Qwilfish is the best mon to setup Spikes since it can setup Spikes pretty easily on a lot of mons (Tinkatuff, Mareanie, anything it forces to switch out).
So overall, what makes Qwilfish banworthy to me, is the way it overcentralized the meta, usually 3 or 4 Pokemons of a team are here because of Qwilfish (not mainly, but Qwilfish is still a reason of it) Qwilfish is hard to deal with without sacking anything or trading it with your own Qwilfish, and finally, being able to setup Spikes in a meta where hazards removal are having a hard time, is just incredibly good and imo, unhealthy.
Qwilfish basically doing SD and taking 2 kills because it has no switch in
Qwilfish winning the 1v1 vs Crocalor
Qwilfish counterplay being Qwilfish
Spikes being incredibly good for both
Qwilfish and Qwilfish casually trading Spikes again
Qwilfish taking a kill for free
:dunsparce: Dunsparce :dunsparce:
So this Pokemon is just crazy, it has incredible stats, literally just the perfect coverage with Earth Power + Ice Beam, Serene Grace is incredible because it allows you to have 40% to SpD Drop and 20% to freeze something (which is actually really huge), CM makes it a huge threat and since Fighting types are usually hard to build with, it's being crazy against most of the teams, Body Slam / Glare is also viable to paraspam and yellow magic is a broken mecanic, Headbutt + Glare is a fun set that can randomly 1v1 every Pokemon of the tier if you're lucky enough.
To deal with it you can use Switcheroo/Encore/Toxic/Fighting types, so it looks really restricted since Toxic is almost never used due to lack of users, Fighting types aren't common, Switcheroo is kinda a one time chance, and Encore can do fine but still you need to either play Quaxwell, which is not great rn, or Tinkatuff that risks to take like 40%/50% on Earth Power something like that, which is huge.
I'll just post some replays because Dunsparce shows on its own why it's banworthy.
What happens when you're only way to deal with Dunsparce is Switcheroo
Dunsparce vs Dunsparce dual of all time
☆PandaDoux♥♡㋛★✩: dunsparce is a balanced mon into freeze on the very next turn
Jirachi
This Pokemon is just nearly perfect, so bulky, so easy to fish a freeze, perfect movepool, typing is actually great because fighting types aren't common, can abuse yellow magic.
I think Dunsparce is 100% banworthy in a Qwilfish-H meta, however i wanna see if a no Qwilfish meta can adapt with Fighting types being more common, or Mareanie being better.
 

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